Player-base Involvement.

I would like to clear the air of a few things before I go any further with this suggestion. This topic is not to change the latest patch on the site since I could see from several people on the Discord that they have no issue with it. Outside of the fact, I know I burned a few bridges with my thoughts and my inability to censor myself in there. Instead, this topic is to address future patches which deal with OC matters more than IC matters. I know the staff has to balance several things attempting to deal with the desires and wants of the individuals on site and what is best for the site. However, I believe that things which affect everyone should be voted on by the player-base itself rather than just a small council. This voting would only be for matters that affect OC matters than IC matters because I know the personal bias of many players would intervene. An example being one of the more recent patches which fixed summons, so they were no longer getting an extra spell at no extra cost.

Putting that matter aside, I just think there is an issue with the complaint system. While it is there so people don’t have to deal with issues personally to keep as many hurt feelings down as possible, the issue comes from that anonymity. Let’s say the player-base has at least 100 people and 10 of them make a complaint toward the lewdness on the main discord: the mention of eating ass, spanking, etc. Would that warrant changing everyone’s behavior for those 10 people? I know overall we are trying to be nice to everyone, but changing everything for a minority of people would eventually rub people the wrong way. This voting isn’t the best idea either since people on the site herd together as cliches. So if something OC were to be voted and certain players were to say their opinion on it, I know it will sway them. More or less, I think this is a topic that needs to be discussed either way with voting on these OC matters by the player-base being one of the better ideas.

Prince Chaos wrote:I would like to clear the air of a few things before I go any further with this suggestion. This topic is not to change the latest patch on the site since I could see from several people on the Discord that they have no issue with it. Outside of the fact, I know I burned a few bridges with my thoughts and my inability to censor myself in there. Instead, this topic is to address future patches which deal with OC matters more than IC matters. I know the staff has to balance several things attempting to deal with the desires and wants of the individuals on site and what is best for the site. However, I believe that things which affect everyone should be voted on by the player-base itself rather than just a small council. This voting would only be for matters that affect OC matters than IC matters because I know the personal bias of many players would intervene. An example being one of the more recent patches which fixed summons, so they were no longer getting an extra spell at no extra cost.  

Putting that matter aside, I just think there is an issue with the complaint system. While it is there so people don’t have to deal with issues personally to keep as many hurt feelings down as possible, the issue comes from that anonymity. Let’s say the player-base has at least 100 people and 10 of them make a complaint toward the lewdness on the main discord: the mention of eating ass, spanking, etc. Would that warrant changing everyone’s behavior for those 10 people? I know overall we are trying to be nice to everyone, but changing everything for a minority of people would eventually rub people the wrong way. This voting isn’t the best idea either since people on the site herd together as cliches. So if something OC were to be voted and certain players were to say their opinion on it, I know it will sway them. More or less, I think this is a topic that needs to be discussed either way with voting on these OC matters by the player-base being one of the better ideas.

The first suggestion we've had in a hot minute, lol. Do keep note that my opinions are my own and do not represent staff.

As for the first part of your suggestion, I would have to disagree. The majority of the changes made to OOC rules, systems, and functions should be something staff should be responsible for. I personally believe that staff are more knowledgable of the site and how it functions than the average member you are suggesting should vote on these changes. There is a substantial amount of thought, deliberation, and effort that goes into even the most minor of patches, and expanding that process and making it available to everyone, especially people who don't understand them as well as staff does, overcomplicates a system that works. The way players can get involved in changes made to the site is through making suggestions, and many of those suggestions have been acknowledged or even used in later patches.

As for your second suggestion, it has been made before. Of course, not in a suggestion format such as this, but the whole "one bad apple spoils the bunch" isn't anything new. I am completely aware that the fine line of what is and isn't acceptable in our Discord server is very wishy-washy and is oftentimes far from the PG13 standard we uphold in writing, but if several members come to staff and tell them that they feel uncomfortable engaging in a server where it is supposed to be a welcoming place, I'd honestly expect people to at least be mindful of what they say and do. So to answer your question, yes, I do think that warrants people to change their behavior, but I also think you're ignoring the fact that this has happened before. In these cases, the members who complain either do not participate in the server by their own choice or the intensity of what we discuss in the server dials down a bit.

Thas my two cents, ye.

Before I get started on this, I’d like to premise with saying that this reply is not going to be filled with my usual sass or biting sarcasm as I’m sure is expected. I just don’t have the emotional care or energy to approach this suggestion with that kind of attitude. However, I am going to be honest with a few things because I’m not the type to beat around the bush, and frankly I’m sure you expected a response from one of us (me or Mythal) anyway. I’d also like to throw out that my perspective on this is coming as someone who has been a successful admin on a small handful of various sites over the past ten years, so while I am not staff on FTRP I do have that long standing history to understand what goes into being staff and the kind of things you have to consider when making decisions.

As far as the complaint system goes, I see nothing wrong with it. In fact, I’m a little concerned about the fact that your problem with it is that people are allowed to approach staff anonymously about the problems they have. People have the right to anonymity, and don’t need to broadcast their complaints for the entire site to see. In fact, it’s better that they don’t because otherwise I can only imagine how much more drama there would be in chat, and that would scare away a lot of good people that don’t want to be involved or mixed up or exposed to all that nonsense. As a follow up to that, the general public also does not have a right to know the details of each and every complaint that is filed to see where it is coming from and what exactly is said, for the same reasons. Additionally, staff is not obligated to show their steps that lead toward making a decision. They have enough to deal with in doing their jobs, let alone having to explain and put out a chart of events that brought them to each point of making a change.

In regard to your thoughts on complaints from a minority group being used to create changes that affect the majority, this line of thought surprises me… but getting into that is going to tread the line of IRL politics and comparisons, so I’m not going to open up that discussion. All I’m going to say is: Some people suck, and sometimes that ruins nice, simple things for everyone else. Staff shouldn’t need to get complaints from an overwhelming majority of the site’s members to change something that is causing an issue for several members. It is their job to take all the information that gets to them and decide what course of action is appropriate in response to it, and creating a system where they are constantly having to get opinions and feedback from the entire site and letting every single member be a part of making those decision is not an efficient, or smart, way to run a site.

But yes, I do believe that it is perfectly acceptable for a decision to be made based off complaints that are received from a small majority of the site. If there are multiple complaints about something being an issue for members or making them uncomfortable, why would they not have the right to have that issue addressed just because there’s only a few of them and not the entire site? They shouldn’t need to get a petition signed, especially when the requested change would barely affect other members on the site.

Why won’t you call this for what is it? This has nothing to do with thinking that minority problems shouldn’t affect the majority. You simply don’t trust staff. You have made more than enough passive aggressive and cryptic comments in main chat stating as such, and lately those comments have been losing the thin veil they had over them in the first place. You made it very clear yesterday that you felt this last patch was targeted specifically at you, despite the fact that admins told you that wasn’t the case. I quote some of the following:

“It just feels very suspect to me to be frank”
“It is still suspect to me. Like it happened legit after some person spoke to me about my guest status”
“I just hope this doesn’t lead down a slippery slope”
“I’m actually scared of that” (In response to Aya very clearly memeing about the site heading toward communism and Nessa taking control)
“Certain fears of individuals having too much sway on site”
“I am just not a trusting person of people in power”

You know, you talked a lot of game in chat yesterday about if people had issues with you, that you wished they would just message you privately about it. That’s an awful lot of high road to take after comments like this and all the other passive aggressive ways you were behaving in chat following it. It’s very hypocritical. If you have a problem with the way the admins are running things, then message one of them about it. Hell, Markus is right there. He’s been gone for months and not involved in anything that’s been going on leading up to this point. Otherwise, if you feel that staff would not listen to you fairly, there are very clear guides in the CoC saying to message Seijin directly to voice your concerns. And if you don’t trust Seijin to be fair, then I really don’t know what to tell you. At that point my question would be to wonder why you’re even here if you distrust staff so much that you don’t even feel like you can talk to them about your concerns. If I were in those shoes, I’d find another site that I find less hostile.

And before anyone comes in with something along the lines of “Well that’s easy for you to say, Hilda, you’re friends with staff. They probably listen to you.” Not that this is anyone’s business, but I’m going to say it anyway to make my point. Yes, Mythal and I are good friends with the administrative team and get along with them very well. However, we do NOT agree with every choice they’ve ever made, and we have gotten into arguments with them before. Some of them were bad enough that Mythal and I considered leaving the site. However, we still took the initiative to talk to them about our concerns and complaints and find a place of resolution, maturely and in private as is evidenced by the fact that this is the first time most of you are even hearing about us having such major disagreements with them in the past. Mythal and I are not people who just jump on the “support staff” bandwagon just because they’re our friends, and have even a number of times defended people in private that we don’t talk to or don’t like because we felt it was appropriate to do so.

Tl;dr I’m sorry you felt like you were being targeted by a patch, despite staff’s insistence that you weren’t, but I feel that this suggestion is a not-so-subtle attempt for you to continue your passive aggressive thoughts about distrusting staff and trying to both garner pity in that stance as well as trying to undermine them/take their “power” away because you don’t have the stomach to approach them directly. You have problems with authority, and that’s fine. But that’s not their problem, that’s yours.

So, I am going to speak as a neutral third party(despite being on staff) who quite literately knows very little of what is going on directly, but happens to know quite a bit about being an admin on this site and why decisions are made. As was already said, decisions such as this are made by admins or staff because we have more information. We see far more than people believe, and are almost always updated to the goings on of the site. From silent grevences fought in the background and in a variety of ways ways, to arguments, complaints, and worries from a multitude of different sources and players.

Now, understand this. I have not had any say in any of the decisions made on site in the last month. This has nothing to do with the decisions being made without me, but because I have abstained any input for the fact that I have not been on site, or even on discord at all. This is because again, information is important in decisions, and despite being an admin I would not be able to make an informed decision which is best for the site without knowing the facts, like everyone else I have returned with a lot that I need to learn and be updated on. As such, I can empathize quite well with that side of things.

Now, let me be brutally honest. We have decided to make these decisions for the player base quite simply because that is our job. We are tasked, and do not get paid, to work full time on a site that really does not understand what that means. That does not see the(some days dozens) of messages, PMs, notification, and more that we get on a daily basis. As Seri had said, there are ways to handle staff greivensess, and we are constantly trying to make the site as best as possible for the player base as a whole, and as comfortable as possible for as many as possible including the few.

That being said, we are always trying to make the entire site, all discords, and everything associated as best as possible for the players involved. It is absolutely important to us that we address issues from players, and I have on a number of times worked as a mediator between players with issues, and even staff with issues, some specifically about what was addressed here about the discord chat, and others about a variety of other topics. And, to put it bluntly the only way those issues are solved is animity. No one should have their dirty laundries aired. Could you even imagine if everyone saw every warning? There would be multiple times more drama, issues, and the site as a whole would be a way more uncomfortable setting and absolutely more toxic. That part about site will never change, but as was said, there are multiple staff, a variety of admins(who by the way do not always agree), and the owner. They all are open to be talked to if there is a complaint, and will address those issues on a case by case basis. Or of course, if the complaint is brought up in a suggestion, then it will be addressed openly.

As Seri said, we do consider her friends, but we have also had conversations, and even arguments with her and Mythal. We have addressed complains other staff members have gotten, and called out one another on a multitude of things which are absolutely vital. Understand this, yes, we are friends. Trust me, it is far better that the staff are friends than if we are all trying to one up the others, otherwise nothing would get done. But, we have a job to do as staff, and we take that seriously. As such, any thought that we would not uphold that above all else is, quite frankly, insulting.



Anyways, all of this is to say if there are problems, there are ways to handle it. Staff makes decisions in the background for a reason, all of which have been addressed here, and in the multitude of other suggestions we have seen like this, and finally, if there is a problem with staff, bring it up to another staff member who is separate or the owner. If there is problem with authority, than forum RP might not be the ideal setting as there will always be staff, and an owner.
Again, all of this from someone who knows nothing of whatever past grievances there are since the most resent patch, other than that there seems to be an issue, and spoken purely as my own thoughts which do not in any way reflect staff.

I'm not gonna start by saying that the following doesn't represent staff opinion or that it's nothing personal, because I am tired of facade and masquerade. It might just be staff opinion, admin opinion, at the least, and it is personal, especially considering the display surrounding this whole circus here. I will be as straight about this as possible, disregarding any hurt feelings or whatever else consequence might ensue from this. Since I will obviously be accused of such as well, I don't think I am untouchable, but I legitimately have had enough of this drama, in any capacity, on any platform, in any way, shape, or form it might take. This might be half vent and half opinion, so if you want to, feel free to disregard anything said after this point and simply know that I essentially agree with the majority of things that have been said before in response to the original post. If this doesn't bother you, then by all means, I invite you to indulge in what I have to say:

You know, I've been called many things before on this site. A bootlicker for joining the staff team in a sincere attempt to legitimately improve this site, its systems, modus operandi, and lastly, its community. Why? Because I tried to change a system with problems from the inside instead of keeping up a relentless and incessant stream of bitchfits? I don't know, but it certainly felt that way.

A traitor for treating people as was expected of me in a staff position, specifically by people I once considered to be my good friends, possibly more than that, and holding them to the same standard as everyone else in an attempt to keep this site fair for everyone, IC and OOC.

I've had lies fabricated and spread about me by a large number of people, about my person, about things I am supposed to have done or said, about my intent, anything people will get their hands on. I understand that staff are often the target of member frustrations, it's part of the job, and I get it. I very much used to be the same way, used to feel the same way as a member, though this both circles back to my first point, and a point I want to bring up: Once you are forced to take the site's best interest as your top priority, some things just have to fall flat, individual members included. As Seri has said, if 90 people are silent about a change, and 10 people openly agree with a change, that does not mean that 90 people disagree with said change. At all.I would actually argue that the change in question was only opposed by those directly affected by it. Understandable, but a directly desired consequence, too. To say that the patch targeted people affected by it is obvious and needs no explanation. Why we decided to implement this was, as I already explained, to help enforce other site systems.

You personally, as a guildless member of the site, do not have the privilege, and should not have the privilege of enjoying all the benefits that come with being in a guild while actively avoiding joining a guild in order to circumvent any other requirements or responsibilities directly associated with it that would be directed at you, especially, as you have so eloquently expressed before, in order to avoid activity checks. That's considered loopholing, and there is hardly any argument about that. Of course, we have been very lenient on this before, and have only now addressed it after months and months of this issue persisting, because we avoid stepping on people's toes as much as possible in order to ensure everyone has a nice RP experience. After we've received a whole bunch of complaints about this and other applicable scenarios addressed in the patch as well, we were forced to do something about it, because collectively, these issues were causing more and more tension, something detrimental to an enjoyable experience. If it means that some people will be inconvenienced, so be it, but we are not restricting your right to roleplay with anyone, plot with anyone, talk to anyone on site, whether this is on the site itself or on the Discord. There are a whole bunch of avenues for you to take. Don't like those other avenues? Sorry, not my problem. I am not here to cater to you and your sensibilities specifically.

This ties neatly into another point I wanna make. As I said before, I have been called many names before on this site, but I have to admit, "openly" being called a tyrant is a new one. Of course, I say "openly" because it has technically not been occurring out in the open, but hidden behind things such as discord statuses, vents in certain channels, and as said in a previous post, increasingly thinly veiled attempts at not only accusing us of bias, favoritism, or what you evidently perceive as dictatorial behavior. This is what infuriates me the most about this. You have been so clearly heavily opposed to us but always mask your complaints as real-life problems. If you don't call out anyone by name we can't get you for it, after all, hm? We all know what you are doing. Do you think we don't see it? Of course, you know that we see it. You want us to see it, while simultaneously protecting yourself from any consequence stemming from what is quite openly staff-bashing and attempts to start drama and bait people into unfavorable scenarios and situations, especially in the main Discord chat. I'm honestly surprised that you, knowing you are on the thinnest of ice, especially after being banned from the site once before for a reason that I feel like should make you feel lucky that you're still allowed to be here, not to mention the fact that you're not on some kind of government list, still actively seek to start unnecessary drama, and when people fail to take your side, will try to present yourself as the reasonable party in this scenario by acting like your suggestion comes from a legitimate place of concern for the site and its system, not the loss of your personal benefit and hurting of sensibilities resulting in a desire to get back at us. But we're supposed to be the ones stepping out of line because we joke about the occasional sexual innuendo? I am not buying it. In the interest of keeping this discussion civil, I will cut myself off here and leave this point alone.

I could attempt to convince people here, make clear that, with all sincerity, we have the site's and communities best interest at heart, that we have been working tirelessly for the past two and a half years to fix the mess that previous renditions of staff have left us with, largely without any clue and / or prior experience, go into detail about the fact that, while we try our very best to treat every single member of the forum with the fairness and good will they deserve, and that yes, sometimes we have to disadvantage people in the interest of said fairness, a circumstance that we honestly regret, we cannot cater to every single individual and every single opinion, I am not gonna. I have explained these same things over and over and over. It's the same deal, the same explanation every single time, only the names and faces hurling accusations at us change. I am simply sick and tired of it. Being an Administrator on this Forum is a direct mandate by Seijin to manage this site for him. If you do not trust us to have the site's best interest at heart, if you do not trust us to handle things fairly, to try and keep the community drama free, in short, to try and manage this site in a good manner, you do not trust Sei. Of course, you can complain to Sei, in fact, feel free to do so if you feel legitimately mistreated. Stay anonymous, say what you have to say, make your voice heard in a way that is keeping the main chat and site drama free. We will listen to what you have to say. In the end, though, if you don't want that, if you don't feel like we or Sei are handling this place right, you have every right and every means to leave and simply join a different forum. What's keeping you here if we are nothing but oppressors and tyrants to you? The hope that our way to deal with things will change? The way you have been acting has not exactly inspired any change for the better.

What you shouldn't be doing is present yourself as the good guy in the most hypocritical and disingenuous way possible. Don't come into main chat alluding to "the essay you are writing" that will "expose" us in your pitiful attempt to garner sympathy for your drama, and then post something like this.

One last thing: If you, or other people, feel like we are being tyrants, something that I believe is not only counter-productive to any valid point you might have, but also rather hurtful, say it to our faces. If you think the past two years of us walking on eggshells to address every single sensibility people bring to us with equal fairness, us attempting to fix every problem that exists on this forum, us working our asses off so everyone here can have fun were tyranny, then you haven't seen us being tyrants. I am done with being charitable, I am done with being nice, I am done with being patient, and most notably, I am done with letting things slide in the interest of peace.

FTRP has a zero-tolerance policy for drama and any attempt to start such. From now on, I will do my personal best that this policy will be actively enforced in every applicable way.

Consider this is my final warning in that regard to anyone and everyone reading this who feels like it might apply to them.

After this reply, I want a member of staff to close this topic or do whatever they want with it because I am not a person who cannot understand when a suggestion is not going to be approved. However, I wish to set several things straight before that happens since many people seem to think this was random lashing out over a singular patch. No, there were several other smaller things which had constantly happened through the years. Things that I did not agree with and I had already made that clear. These things always seemed random and weird to me since they were okay before but suddenly they were tabooed - the thing that got me started thinking that maybe some input from the player-base would be good was when speaking of magic on VC was banned. It was an incident that happened for people who doubt me. It made little sense to me, nor did the reasoning behind it.

However, that was foolishness and ignorance on my part. Reading over Johann’s reply and Markus’ reply made me think a lot more on continuing this pointless fight. No, thinking isn’t the correct term. Humbled is more appropriate in this situation. I did not originally see the guest role as a way to circumvent and enjoy the benefits of being a guild since I was not receiving any of the IC rewards for it - bonus exp and being able to put points on the scoreboard. But from another view, I thought more on it and understood more about it. But, I will cut it short here.

Before someone asks, was this completely out of spite for the patch? Partly. The other part as hard as it may be to believe by several you all on here was legit concern. However, like I said, reading over the replies from the staff - mainly Johann’s because it was his legitimate feelings not hidden by some mask or sarcasm. I truly see that this staff differs from the last one and legit care about the site rather than being in power. To the other part, where is the apology? It may sound rude, but I don’t think an apology is needed rather in this situation actions speak louder than words. So that is all. Close the topic and if you could delete it. It doesn’t need to exist anymore.