Tertiary Magic

A.10 Tertiary Magic

Is only obtainable for mages of SS Rank and higher. This magic is complementary magic that only has a supportive rule in all aspects. It is highly recommended to use this magic for Guild Symbol spells. Tertiary magic has 1 spell of each rank, up to your own rank (max. S Rank), and is also registered in the Secondary Magic section.

It is listed in your profile following the example:

Primary Magic: Something Cool

Secondary Magic: Something Neat / Something Beautiful (Tertiary)

The following magic is NOT allowed:
- Offensive Magic
- Defensive Magic
- Buff Magic (increase of stats, power, ect.)
- Debuff Magic (decrease of stats, power, etc.)
- Lacrima
- Healing Magic

Alright, Just figured I'd toss my two cent in here. First off, I like how the magic is as it is. I mean it does say in the description it is supposed to be supplementary. If you opened your mind to things that are more abstract. From what I've seen, most people use this for plot (Most, meaning Siren), which was a good idea in my opinion.

I had the idea of doing something that would intertwine with the magic of my new character. Something that would bridge the gap that separated the two different types that it's going to encompass.

Also Zack as you can read above, you can use the Tertiary magic in combat! It's very possible to have it used, just gotta put your mind into it. All in all, you're taking something that could be more entertaining to be used by people, and tossing it out before giving EVERYONE a chance to use it.

*shrugs* I was giving an option for people to get it at lower ranks. It also gave more versatility as tertiary is meant to be 'something neat/something beautiful' rather than combatative stuff.

Honestly, you should try lowering the rank of the magic to like B-rank, and see what people do from there. After so long, if no one tries to use it, remove it then. It's no good removing it on the basis of no one using it when it's been locked behind a massive door that is SS rank, meaning not many people can even think about using it for awhile. I do believe, this thread and the last thread all summed up to the Rank being dropped.

why not lower it to be unlocked at D Rank.. so everyone can use it?

The main reason I want to change it is because I don't want mods to have yet another thing they need to review on top of everything else. This might seem a selfish reason, but it is a good reason nevertheless. People complain about their apps taking forever or whatever and you want a whole new app type for them to grade? Something which isn't straight forward at all?

The option I provided would be something that doesn't need to be graded. Would allow little flashy things for non-combat. In all honesty we don't need anything more combat wise then what we have.

Between primary, secondary, spell fusions, weapons, armors, items, lacrima etc there is so many options that just adding another option for combat seems pointless. There is nothing stopping people doing this in their magic and there is enough spell slots for it to occur.

My idea was for as you say 'plot' stuff but for non-combat purposes. Little things to have fun or show off.

However, I'm not ruling out the idea of bringing tertiary magic in and lowering the rank. I've even suggested this to admins in the past, before the admin team changed, but they disagreed. So it seems like the site agree on that.

However, how do you want it done? Ranked? How many spells? Etc. Give me some ideas

1 or 2 per rank would be reasonable.
Having just:
Spell name -- (What's the spell's name)
Spell Rank -- (Rank, of course)
Spell description -- (What does it look like?)
Spell Effect -- (What does it do RPly?)

Should be all that's necessary. Basically the above, since it doesn't have any combat applications... all the user would have to do is not make a broken spell like... Summoning a dragon that devours a town to another planet... (yes.. a bit over the top.. but used as an example none-the-less) is really all that needs to be graded.

There shouldn't be numbers involved. Just it's name, what's it look like, and what's it do.. That's really about it. Shouldn't be too awfully difficult.

Example:

Spell Name: Red Warp Hole
Spell Rank: B
Spell Description: A large red portal is created out of thin air. This portal swirls around like a pin-wheel around a center axis with pulsating red light come from what looks like a gathering of clouds. The Portal stands at 8 feet high and is an oblong oval with it's height being wider than it's width.
Spell Effect: Can instantly travel to another location. Can carry up to 3 people in a portal at one time.

Basically, something like that. If it is desired to not make tertiary magic be used in combat, then, well.. this spell can't be used in combat and is then ignored during combat.

I like Anastasia's suggestion quite a lot. And well, you could have things require minimal grading, just make it so tertiary spells can't be used in jobs unless there are no enemies around (so basically you can't use it unless you haven't yet rolled for monsters, or all the monsters you've rolled have been defeated).

Aye, but if it doesn't have any combat applications and thus requires so little grading why not just have pre-made ones and then if you want custom ones then they can be added to the list after a hopefully short review period.

Could even make something like this 'red hole' as one and jsut make it 'portal' and then allow the user creative freedom as to what it looks like.

I'm honestly iffy on what should essentially be 'fluff' spells i.e. something beautiful rather than something overly functional....being ranked like that.

Because using premade magic is boring as hell, that's why we don't want premade ones. You might also want something more unique to your character and don't want it added to a list for other people to use. As for the rank, well it wouldn't make any sense for someone at C-rank to be able to teleport across the word, hence there should be some level of ranking for them, but it wouldn't be super strict like it is for combat spells.

I don't think you get this. We don't want pre-made stuff. Stop trying to make an excuse for your Staff team. By taking this away, you're doing the thing you're against. You're taking away possible story Zack. Just lower the rank that Tertiary magic is unlocked, and maybe 2 slots per rank. Thats fine! I mean hell, there is no real direct offensive or defensive use for these spells. Hell, didn't you hate cookie cutter stuff Zack? Cause if you do the premade stuff thats pretty much what you're doing

Vexel that was out of line, anyways. As of right now i think Tertiary magic should be removed and revisted later when the site's magic/HP/MP rules have been finished with the fixes. There are alot of systems that need fixing as well. This is alot of work for both the Staff and devs, so for now guys i ask you bear with us, nothing has been decided as of yet stop chopping the staff members up for a SUGGESTION thread. He put a idea out and you guys are chopping him up for it, he put it out to see reactions and got hatred.

ON TOP of the fact the most of the staff is new and he does not want to dump a huge amount of things on the suddenly. That just makes thing harder as people quit suddenly or go off the deep end, Please stop attacking the staff for trying to fix things. I see it in Cbox, in guild chats and in suggestions. The fact is there needs to be some sort of control or things will get out of hand and... well *points to Event thread with heero* Thats what complete freedom get you.

P.S. Sorry to use you as a example Heero.

As of right now i think Tertiary magic should be removed and revisted later when the site's magic/HP/MP rules have been finished with the fixes.

Now this is a good reason to hold up on Tertiary magic. If you guys are already working on the magic system, then yeah, it's reasonable to pull it until those edits are made. Though honestly, in the state it is now, it doesn't really do much. The post you're referencing didn't have him using... anything. I looked over his magics, and there were no mention of anything beyond the roar. But enough about that, tertiary wouldn't be a whole lot of work to balance I don't think, especially if we just add in that it can't be used in combat period. But again, if you guys are working on revising magic already, then tertiary can wait.

Ok so I see all but shouldn't we have it just so that it can't be used in combat? I mean spells like water walking, breathing underwater, levitation, insta teleport or flying would require concentration that could not be gained if the user thinks they are in a battle, sorta of how goku's insta-teleportation can't be used if he's trying to out-fly a giant ball of magic energy.

ALSO, this should, like zack said, be saved for when the mod team has time, since their is not a really big demand for teritary magic out of the majority of the people on here. And well, their are other things more important in the first place here(Magic and character grading, enjoying rping, debug the site, and so on, so these should be a first priority anyways, rather then a add-on magic like this).

Vexel, I gave a potential option which you instantly tore apart with 'we don't want this'. The 'spell book' idea was to give little simple things that people could do and as they are premade there would be no grading required except for approval of purchase and then you would get story writing stuff that you could use. Oh your clothes got torn in that battle? Use your 'clothes' spell scroll to change your outfit. It was little things that could be fun to have and would cost a small amount of jewels to get and no mp to use. Heck, if people 'don't want this' then why did Skyllon say it sounded like a great idea?

Tertiary as it stands is a non-combat option. As in you can't use it in battle. Also, I'm hesistant about it being ranked because these are meant to be basic abilities. Also two per rank is another potentially 12 spells that need to be graded which have to be graded specifically to make sure they aren't usable in canon.

Currently tertiary, as it stands, would work like a normal secondary magic as in five spells, one for each rank up to S. However, all five spells would have to be part of a single magic. Not just random spells tossed together. Tertiary is an odd one and tbh I don't think it should of been introduced. I feel we have enough room for, to use your terms 'story', with what applications we have. However, that isn't to say this won't be introduced in the future.

Nobody has 'clamored' for the reduction of the rank of tertiary until this thread pop up. Perhaps people didn't know about it or didn't think changing it was an option. Guess what? We are open to suggestions. However, suggestions should be constructive and should consider the site as it is which includes staff capacity.

Now weretiger brings up an interesting idea. Non-combatative stuff because they require focus and so using them in battle just isn't possible such as Goku's instant translocation. This is perhaps one idea of what a tertiary could be. However, again i'm hesitant on having these as ranked and i'm also hesitant on putting more work on the staff team then is needed.

However (which does seem to be my favourite word), this will be considered after more necessary systems for the site are fixed.

Just pointing out here that reducing the rank for tertiary and a few other suggestions for it have popped up before in a thread by Kirahunter. There are some pretty good ideas in there to look at as well. I do like the scrolls ability you brought up, but I don't think it should be a replacement for tertiary magic. Tertiary magic should be made to add more flavor/fluff abilities specifically to your character, and should be unique to your character, just like your magic. A standardized popular cantrip loadout thing is a cool idea, though.

So I don't know if most of you really know what Tertiary magic really is at all. Its a magic with zero function at all. The spells do nothing but give you something to show off with really like forming out illuminated butterfly wings on your back that you cannot fly with but show it off to look cool.

That is all Tertiary magic is really for is to show off and to look cool. It is supposed to do nothing outside of that meaning it has zero function in or out of battle besides to make a mage look cool.

I hope this helps you guys understand why it can be done inside of RP already with your magic and does not need to take up a slot of spells or have a magic template at all to be something on site and you probably have used spells that are similar to Tertiary before already in threads.

This is all from the info from one of the people who helped make Tertiary magic in the past because even then people had a huge number of ways to make actually functional spells and Tertiary magic was made to just give GMs and higher ranks ways of feeling more special even though it was completely unnecessary.

Sorry if this ruins any ideas some of you have but this is the truth on what Tertiary magic really is and is supposed to be on site. If there has been anything made that does not follow this then that was a mistake on staff's part. Again sorry if this ruins any ideas but it is the truth on what it is.

Well.. Okay.

But does Tertiary magic have to be sparklers and glamorous magic?
I don't see the harm of making Tertiary magic things that can be used outside of battle that doesn't have a combat application. Being flexible about the magic is fine and more people would use it.

If it's just sparklers and glamour, nobody will ever apply for it. They'll just RP it without approval (which doesn't bother me none really) for sparklers and glamour. But for things like Teleporting and changing one's appearance, they can potentially effect RPing instead of being "oh.. gee.. that's nice".

My problem with pre-made spells are the fact that... even with all these spells being pre-made, not everyone will even considering buying into it. What if I wanted to make something that wasn't a pre-made spell? Would that mean I'm stuck waiting to the next rank to make an RP spell something in my actual magics? I'd rather not To be honest.

If people want to alleviate the need for massive approvals.. I have a possible solution.

Everyone at D Rank is given access to 3 RP SPELLS (yup, changed the name).
They then create these RP Spells with what I proposed earlier (minus the rank) and it's up to the staff to see if it's ok or not. Since it doesn't involve numbers, it shouldn't be too difficult to use.
And these spells CANNOT be used in combat.

Quick.. Easy.. Done..

Anastasia Isayev wrote:Well.. Okay.

But does Tertiary magic have to be sparklers and glamorous magic?
I don't see the harm of making Tertiary magic things that can be used outside of battle that doesn't have a combat application.  Being flexible about the magic is fine and more people would use it.

If it's just sparklers and glamour, nobody will ever apply for it.  They'll just RP it without approval (which doesn't bother me none really) for sparklers and glamour.  But for things like Teleporting and changing one's appearance, they can potentially effect RPing instead of being "oh.. gee.. that's nice".

My problem with pre-made spells are the fact that... even with all these spells being pre-made, not everyone will even considering buying into it.  What if I wanted to make something that wasn't a pre-made spell?  Would that mean I'm stuck waiting to the next rank to make an RP spell something in my actual magics?  I'd rather not To be honest.

If people want to alleviate the need for massive approvals.. I have a possible solution.

Everyone at D Rank is given access to 3 RP SPELLS (yup, changed the name).
They then create these RP Spells with what I proposed earlier (minus the rank) and it's up to the staff to see if it's ok or not.  Since it doesn't involve numbers, it shouldn't be too difficult to use.
And these spells CANNOT be used in combat.  

Quick.. Easy.. Done..

Yup. Tertiary magic is only for sparkles and glamour. Anything that has a function at all is not supposed to be Tertiary magic at all. Its why I was saying earlier that it is completely worthless to have as something and most of the staff or past staff I speak to about it agree with that.

We could revamp it but then again it would be exactly what any other spell would be at that point with the weakness of not being allowed in battle, which is a weakness some people use for spells now anyways. It really would just end up being another way for people to gain extra spells which we do not need at all really with the amount of options people already have.

Yeah.. problem with that is..

Say I wanted my character to teleport everywhere.. or change my appearance..
But my character's main is song magic. Where it wouldn't make sense to teleport everywhere or change my appearance. Then what? How would I be expected to have that kind of magic "which people already do" when those spells that I want for S&Gs do not fit my primary or possibly secondary spell typing?

Should I be forced to have one of my typings involve teleportation or appearance changes just to have 1 spell to do that? To be honest, I'd rather just RP it out without anyone's permission if that is the case.

You would be limited to your magic in the fact that it would have to make sense. This is why people are given secondary magic to help with them getting other spells they could possibly want.

If we just allowed everyone to use the spells they wanted then everyone would have every spell which would give little reason to people having magic focusing on certain elements.

Now I disagree with tertairy magic being removed as it is a nice touch to add more magic to where it would not be possible by magic abilities or equipment.

 However it could be graded easy enough by putting one weakness; the user has to have complete focus. This would mean, for example levitation, that the user has to focus on the act of levitation since it does not come as naturally as their first or secondary magics. But if they are suddenly attacked while in the air, whether the attack missed or not, then the user would stop the levitation because they now have to focus on who cast that spell. Other spells like walking on water, teleporting to insta-transport, breathing underwater, maybe even food changing spells, these spells would require the complete focus and could not be used if the user is in any sort of way in a combat situation or a situation that would require them to focus on other objectives(Say spy on a potential crook, the user would have to focus on following the man or else the would lose the man for the period of using their tertiary and jeopardize the mission).

Also by what has been written in the thread here, it has been said that tertiary spells should not be the opposite of the element of the caster(Ex. a water mage creating a spark of fire). Maybe we can even extend this to where the tertiary spell can't be used by the caster if it clearly violates one of their magic's weakness(Example is water breathing or walking on water cannot be learned by a mage if their magic's weakness is they cannot swim or float in the water). Or we can just have it as that tertiary spells cannot have any elemental affiliation.

Of course if this proves to complicated to manage then maybe it would be best for the pre-written spells, just so the staff can avoid further work as was mentioned since they are suppose to be simple magics to begin with.

Anastasia Isayev wrote:Yeah.. problem with that is..

Say I wanted my character to teleport everywhere.. or change my appearance..
But my character's main is song magic.  Where it wouldn't make sense to teleport everywhere or change my appearance.  Then what? How would I be expected to have that kind of magic "which people already do" when those spells that I want for S&Gs do not fit my primary or possibly secondary spell typing?

Should I be forced to have one of my typings involve teleportation or appearance changes just to have 1 spell to do that?  To be honest, I'd rather just RP it out without anyone's permission if that is the case.  

Possible places you can put that:

Weak Item, has 1 passive slot
Strong+ Item, has 2 passive slots
Legendary Item, has 2 passive slots
Artifact, has 2 passive slots

Strong Weapon, you can make teleportation an offensive ability, but also use it to explain yourself getting around.
Leg/Artifact weapon, same thing.

Strong/leg/artifact armour, same thing with weapons.



Now onto the original topic, Tertiary magic was originally a horrible idea. In the dev chat we've been discussing it and we already have someone who's claimed it as a project for them to work on.

It's decided that Tertiary will not be given combat uses (such as the ones Sky advised).

Why not?
An S Rank player who spends absolutely NO jewel on items will have the following spells:
D - 4
C - 3
B - 3
A - 3
S - 2
Signature Spells - 1

An S Rank player who has obtained Secondary magic will have:
D - 5
C - 4
B - 4
A - 4
S - 3
Signature Spells - 2

An S Rank player who has bought EVERYTHING they can buy, or done jobs that award it:
D - 11
C - 9
B - 8
A - 7
S - 5
Signature Spells - 2
In total, that's 42 spells in total.

BUT WAIT, THERE'S MORE!

Artifact, Legendary, Strong weapons +5 Offensive
Artifact, Legendary, Strong Armours +5 Defensive
Artifact, Legendary, Strong(+) Magic Items, +6 passives
Let's say this person went the extra mile for having stuff to use in combat and got himself a mythical whatever, now he's got 6 more.

Am I done? NO! Pets!
Artifact Armour, Artifact Weapon, Artifact Magic Item. +6 to your combat stuff
That pet has 2 spells of its own, now that's +2 more.
New Total of things this 1 player has to keep track of: 72. That isn't including the 7 Unique Abilities on his/her magic application. Definitely forgot to mention the 2 more unique abilities on this person's secondary magic. So I guess that means it's actually 81 things.

That's 81 things that you have at your disposal, magic wise that is, for the use in combat. Now, a question would be raised as to how much that would cost. There's jobs that award items that you buy from shop. The Hunter is an example of one such job, and can be completed by 2x C Rank players. It awards a Legendary Magic Item, throw 5K on top that at the shop and now it's Legendary(+). There's also jobs to get Artifact items, if you're S rank you can do them. Or make a job that's INSANELY hard at A rank, maybe you can get that approved for it.


Why I'm knocking the idea of having Tertiary Magic cost something?
- It has no practical use in combat. Why would I drop a single jewel on it?
- I would sooner RP that, without permission

Tertiary magic should be simple stuff, like making a light show by refracting light off of ice (if you're an ice wizard) or that. Or being able to change faces like someone else has done. Now, I will let you know that it has been thought of to drop the requirement and the person working on it is also leaning in that direction.

Cirven wrote: You would be limited to your magic in the fact that it would have to make sense. This is why people are given secondary magic to help with them getting other spells they could possibly want.

If we just allowed everyone to use the spells they wanted then everyone would have every spell which would give little reason to people having magic focusing on certain elements.

If you're good at wording things, you can make almost any magic. I'll take Ana's teleportation ability for example, and mix it with her song magic.

"By playing a simple song on her (insert instrument), Anastasia is able to attract even the ears of the space/time continuum to her. As favor for serenading the intangible forces, Anastasia is transported to any location she wishes by means of teleportation."

Does it make sense, almost, but it would still get approved supposing I added the distance (if it were a spell). And you can RP using that same spell as a mode of transportation.

I hope you all realize that I just used portals/teleporting as an example.

Actually because of that example I can think of how I can levitate and walk on water(using the spirits of the dead really XD), and you do have a lot of things for your character to be free with(the armors, pets, and so forth). So actually then if we do have this freedom with the armors and items and the rp creativity and so forth then why do we need the third magic type in? Not to say I am against tertiary magic but why is it needed with the example given by seikastu?