Stop overnerfing apps and being inconsistent

Hey everyone,

Former admin speaking and as someone who helped build a lot of the systems on site as they are i'm currently in a state of 'what the hell'.

I realise that some of the issues people have been mentioning are the fault of systems I helped implement and I take credit for that and apologise but a lot of the issue on site right now is overnerfing or even worse inconsistency.



Ranges and speeds are the big thing here. The ranges we allow on some spells now seem tiny. We modified the site's systems to even things out between ranks and allow more damage, but it seems somehow we have nerfed ranges and even worse speed of magic. If a spell moves so slow I can paint a picture of it before it arrives....then that's far too slow a max speed to allow. Its a no wonder people 'dodge' every spell. After all, the spells are so slow a snail could outclass them in some cases.


So I suggest that we rethink speed and ranges. I'm not going to say how because that isn't my job anymore, but if I see flaws in the site (especially ones I introduced) i'm going to call them out.

Also stop overnerfing damage. Its fine if a D rank spell outclasses a basic C rank spell providing its built with enough drawbacks. That's the whole point of having weaknesses for spells, to balance them out. Stop making things so weak they are pointless.

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So that's the overnerfing dealt with. Let's deal with point 2. There are too many cases on site where something is allowed for one mage by mod a and not allowed for another mage by the same mod. This makes no sense.

I can forgive it if mod a and mod b grade an app differently. People aren't machines so there will be pesonal opinions involved. However, it shouldn't be that vast a difference. You are all meant to be working from the same guidelines (which probably need to be adjusted but still).


So please try and work on this. I don't want to keep seeing complaints pop up about it.

*nods*

Speed Demon Zack wrote:

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So that's the overnerfing dealt with. Let's deal with point 2. There are too many cases on site where something is allowed for one mage by mod a and not allowed for another mage by the same mod. This makes no sense.

I can forgive it if mod a and mod b grade an app differently. People aren't machines so there will be pesonal opinions involved. However, it shouldn't be that vast a difference. You are all meant to be working from the same guidelines (which probably need to be adjusted but still).


So please try and work on this. I don't want to keep seeing complaints pop up about it.

Just quoted this part because it's relevant to what I have to say. Many mods have decided to overlook what's been approval in the past, even by admins. Saying that "This isn't a weakness" or "you can't have this as a strength" when it's been something that had been used for what I can tell, years. Not just single mods having issues with being inconsistent with grading apps, but a group of mods. :/ It's like some have their own guidelines

Initial response:

Spoiler:

Speed Demon Zack wrote:
Also stop overnerfing damage. Its fine if a D rank spell outclasses a basic C rank spell providing its built with enough  drawbacks. That's the whole point of having weaknesses for spells, to balance them out. Stop making things so weak they are pointless.

It is also mildly easy to do so. A spell can by default do up to +50% damage with in-built mechanics of the spell. Throw in strengths of the magic itself, support spells, or buffs from items / secondary magic, and a D-rank spell could very well do around B-rank damage. Furthermore, I do NOT believe that is a problem. That's one of the things that came with the massive rule dump a few months ago, improving the damage output of lower ranks and standardizing damage reference points.

IT ISN'T EVEN DIFFICULT FOR A D TO DO S-RANK DAMAGE- And that is not a problem.

I defended Niyol a couple weeks ago or so, for his ability to deal S-rank damage. Four D-rank spells by default are already at 80 damage on their own, just one more would deal S-rank default damage. But given each spell doesn't actually have to do the default damage, four D-ranks can very easily match basic S-rank damage.

This is not a problem.

So that's the overnerfing dealt with. Let's deal with point 2. There are too many cases on site where something is allowed for one mage by mod a and not allowed for another mage by the same mod. This makes no sense.

I can forgive it if mod a and mod b grade an app differently. People aren't machines so there will be pesonal opinions involved. However, it shouldn't be that vast a difference. You are all meant to be working from the same guidelines (which probably need to be adjusted but still).

This may be a little dangerous and discourage anyone from having nice things rather than helping everyone to have nice things. I think it specifically needs to address the mods that would default to saying someone cannot have something.

That should never be the first response, the first reactions of staff should be to allow things to happen or find ways that they can. It shouldn't be to restrict members. Everything needs to really be considered if it really needs to be nerfed or not, and to the minimum extent it needs to be if it does. And if someone already has something, it shouldn't be a question of "Oh we better go nerf them then" but "Alright then, you're clear, sorry!" or "But yours has these few differences here that make it more powerful, here's how we might make it more equal".

Likewise, staff rarely stop to say "Hey, this is really underpowered" or "This may not be the best, here's how we might improve it if you wish." Everything is too focused on "Hey that spell goes too fast that a toddler cannot dodge it, make it less than how fast an average joe can run".

Just quoted this part because it's relevant to what I have to say. Many mods have decided to overlook what's been approval in the past, even by admins. Saying that "This isn't a weakness" or "you can't have this as a strength" when it's been something that had been used for what I can tell, years. Not just single mods having issues with being inconsistent with grading apps, but a group of mods. :/ It's like some have their own guidelines

^

I agree with all stated above, Zack.

I guess the only thing I'd want to chime in on is that on most successful app-grading sites, it is often REQUIRED of mods to give an alternative and a reason if they nerf something. If you cannot have this, here is why(unless it is pretty damn obvious), and here is how you fix it, balance it, or here is another thing you can try.

It's a suggestion in the end, but it is better than telling somebody "hey you can't do this just cause I say so or it isn't allowed(even though this other guy was allowed it), so just figure it out, mmkay?"

^Yep. ^.^

Izayuki wrote:
I guess the only thing I'd want to chime in on is that on most successful app-grading sites, it is often REQUIRED of mods to give an alternative and a reason if they nerf something. If you cannot have this, here is why(unless it is pretty damn obvious), and here is how you fix it, balance it, or here is another thing you can try.

In many cases I feel like it's purely the staff acting as a sole absolute unquestionable authority, often unable to take "Back-talk" or listen to what you have to say about the matter.  Or if they do pretend to listen to you their own predetermined opinion outclasses your own core concepts and aspirations.

Sometimes I feel like some people actively look for any slight thing they can pick out no matter how unnecessary or based on their own opinions it is.   It's like a corrupt government official actively trying to make some BS law such as no whale hunting in the rocky mountains,  because such officials measure success based on what laws they get through / can make and not on quality or efficiency.

I'm not saying everyone does it.   But I see and have seen it a lot.

While I agree with the comments made in this thread, I do have to say that.. You, as a former admin, Zack know full well that there aren't that many actual rules to grading applications. There are guidelines, yes, but there aren't that many actual rules. It was the same while you were admin and it will probably remain this way until actual and clear rules could be made for spells being made. And once there are actual rules being made, people will complain that it's stomping on their creative freedoms (which I think is kind of a crummy answer). Mods are inconsistent because there aren't any set rules to follow and to be rather loose with the guidelines. You, of all people, should understand this.

As for Niyol being able to put together 4 D Rank spells to do S Rank damage is because I was brand-spanking new to the staff and didn't really know better. It wasn't until Seikatsu/Niyol explained it to me that I understood. So please give me a break on that.

And yes, Siren, there is a VERY big difference between back-talk and saying "Hey, this does X". People usually get angry and frustrated when things don't go their way and tend to go to PMs or even sometimes directly on their magic throwing a fit about them not being able to have magic that is overpowered. Please do not confuse the two, even if there is a very fine line.

Basically, what I'm trying to say is... unless there are firm rules on things the way modding stuff isn't going to change. And the likelihood of there being firm rules on things being implemented are rather slim to none.

Heero-senpai wrote:^^^ What Eris said is true.

Used to be better back in the day, now it's a shit show. Personally, I don't think the Mods or Admins approach things with Respect. When someone disagrees with changes that they Request, they threaten to not approve the app---OR threaten to take action against the member.

In all my Apps Graded, over 500+, I have never done that to anyone. Wouldn't dream of it. Our jobs as Staff Members was to make their vision acceptable. Not alter their spell. I have PERSONALLY, and can provide links if need be; seen both Mods and Admins threaten members if they did not make the changes. Now, for the sake of keeping this thread civil, I won't provide those links to those Magic apps in question.

Exactly that.  The #1 goal should be just that,  try to get the magic they dreamed up approvable with very minimal changes and time lost in the approval process,  rather than sticking changes on everything.   If it was underpowered,  way too much,  or not well worded one should help refine it where necessary.  

Anastasia Isayev wrote:
As for Niyol being able to put together 4 D Rank spells to do S Rank damage is because I was brand-spanking new to the staff and didn't really know better.  It wasn't until Seikatsu/Niyol explained it to me that I understood.  So please give me a break on that.

I wasn't referencing you at all.  It was a discussion elsewhere where I explained why it wasn't a problem to someone else, and I wouldn't have known who had an issue with it at all when it was brought up.

I mentioned it to reinforce the point that the amount of damage someone does is a non-issue in the majority of cases,  and perfectly acceptable for someone to push beyond the standard damage listing.   (Furthermore,  if it WAS restricted that would be FAR too restricted,  since each rank is only 20 points away from the next or previous rank).

And yes, Siren, there is a VERY big difference between back-talk and saying "Hey, this does X".  People usually get angry and frustrated when things don't go their way and tend to go to PMs or even sometimes directly on their magic throwing a fit about them not being able to have magic that is overpowered.  Please do not confuse the two, even if there is a very fine line. 

"Throwing a fit" and "Overpowered"  are both very subjective terms.  If someone defends their "Overpowered" ability and are immediately labeled as "Throwing a fit",  it is a problem, and likely not with the member.    Some people have extremely loose definitions of what may be "overpowered", or simply extremely restrictive opinions on how magic should be,  either through their own minimalistic approach to magic or a lack of understanding on how something works out in practice.    

One could say anyone they don't like is "Throwing a fit" when objecting to something,  and anyone could say anything they don't like is "Overpowered".  Which is why expecting to receive counter points when going over someone's magic can improve outlook and receptiveness to those counterpoints.  

Predetermined mindsets are not beneficial to anyone and make individuals blind,  and there is nothing more frustrating than talking to a brick wall when defending your points or trying to offer valid alterations instead of the demanded changes looking for different ways to alter something that might have been objectionable in its previous form.





The point of this topic,  I would imagine,  is not to point fingers at anyone or slap anyone's wrists but to call attention to an ever growing mindset in which things get taken way too far when grading people's applications and reduce the enjoyment on the site.   To work better with members,  hear what they have to say,  and to not be so hard on things.

non-important stuff about the spell of mine that was mentioned:

I agree with Zack on how divided mod opinions are. I feel kinda crappy when someone asks for my opinion of a spell or ability, and I tell them "I don't give opinions because what I say is okay, another mod might say isn't." and have to leave it at that.

In truth, the guidelines are there to give freedom. However, a lot of staff seem to see them AS hard and fast rules even if they are not actually meant to be.

Things like damages, ranges and speeds just need to be balanced appropriately.


I do agree that people shouldn't just say nerf this. Its ridiculous if you don't give reasons why are ways to balance it. Staff should be trying to allow the members to keep what they want and just offer slight tweaks so it fits. If anything it would be good if there were two staff members on each app. It might mean things take a bit longer....but that way you get two opinions and those two mods can work together.

With all due respect... Ranges and Spell speeds hardly mean anything on an rp site. It's not like we write "x player moves 22 metres forward and then casts a spell." You just write that you do the spell on the npc, and even in pvp. A lot of it just seems superficial, besides offering people a chance to dodge a hit due to the speed it would take to hit.

A lot of the "nerfs" I've noticed are usually used to make someone's magic fall in line due to a possible mishap in judgement by some mods, or an oversight (people doing more than 1 things on signature spells when they state that signature spells can only do 1 thing), or to make sure that it's balanced and doesn't bypass rules that are on the site. And if there are bypasses, then the reason to have them must be really strong and not just stop you casting 1 or 2 spells.

Another note on damage: The way damage works on pve and pvp are different. Pve enemies take a lot more hits (2 D=C, 2 C=B, etc). The way damage is thought out on a pvp scale could be seen as "balanced" when it comes to damage, but still makes no sense pve wise.

Nao wrote:With all due respect... Ranges and Spell speeds hardly mean anything on an rp site. It's not like we write "x player moves 22 metres forward and then casts a spell." You just write that you do the spell on the npc, and even in pvp. A lot of it just seems superficial, besides offering people a chance to dodge a hit due to the speed it would take to hit.

If they mean nothing to someone, then that is to their discredit. If someone throws a slow moving projectile, I'm going to treat it as such. If it's a short range spell, I'm going to treat it as such. It is important to keep everything in mind when writing to create something that feels more real.

Certain staff may think slow moving projectiles are "balanced", but they just aren't realistically going to hit anybody ever if they are not unaware or paralyzed. Event then they'd often enough have the opportunity to become aware with how slow some spells are made to travel.

(people doing more than 1 things on signature spells when they state that signature spells can only do 1 thing)

I just want to address this..

People were complaining about signature spells not worth trading items for before, and yet still enforce / keep that ridiculous rule. They're supposed to be more simple than normal, not crippled to the point that a fire wouldn't even cause burns. And where does it end? A fireball for example. Creating heat, creating flames, shaping it into a ball, projecting it, causing damage, the speed it travels, how far it might go, things catching fire when it comes in contact, lingering pain from burns, a burst on impact, smoke produced by the fire, the color of the flames.

What constitutes "1 effect"? It's just yet another thing staff can chose to selectively apply when they feel like it, or if they don't like the person, even though signature spells have frequently been made another way. There was a craze where people made "Form" spells as their signatures at the cost of having durations, meaning cooldowns.

Another note on damage: The way damage works on pve and pvp are different. Pve enemies take a lot more hits (2 D=C, 2 C=B, etc). The way damage is thought out on a pvp scale could be seen as "balanced" when it comes to damage, but still makes no sense pve wise.

It absolutely should not be different. By what cause does someone magically do less or more than normal just because OOC it's PvE or PvP? It is the same character, using the same magic, in the same situations. They aren't suddenly going to become any more or less capable.

The PvE "2 D" are remnants from the pre-damage age of the site, you know, the same time where lower ranked spells would do absolutely nothing to higher ranked mages, haven forbid they had any sort of regeneration or extra resistances than default.

It would have been massive amounts of work to go through and edit every job and reference of that nature.

2 D-rank spells are 40 damage, C-rank. 2 C-rank spells are 80 damage, A-rank. 2 B-rank spells are 120 damage, over S-rank.

If something takes ten D-rank hits to kill, it has 200hp.

If there is no damage described then sure, whatever, go nuts and kill everything in 1 hit if you'd like. But damage is universal and consistent these days, making everything significantly more leveled out. A large amount of D-ranks could take down larger foes that would have been invulnerable to their attacks in the past.

The biggest difference is scope. Higher ranked enemies would have considerably more options, and larger areas of effect.