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    Magic Balancing

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    Ninetails Derpfox

    Moderator- Developer/GFX Artist- Gain An Artifact- Quality Badge Level 1- Quality Badge Level 2- Quality Badge Level 3- Coming Storms- A-Rank- Rich- Veteran Level 1- Character History!- Magic Application Approved!- Get A Pet!- Character Application Approved!- Complete Your First Job!- Obtain A Lineage!- Join A Faction!- Grand Master [2000]- Master [1000]- Senior [500]- Novice [250]- X-Mas Event Participant- 1 Year Anniversary- Player 
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    First Skill: Soul
    Second Skill: Ice
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    Magic Balancing Empty Magic Balancing

    Post by Ninetails Derpfox 30th June 2015, 5:45 am

    So, when someone clicked on this they were going "here we go, another noob wanting major friggin changes that are unreasonable"

    Actually, I have no problems with the current balancing of magic abilities. My character can power up to equal enemies the rank above him for a short period of time, the fact that he loses HP as a price doesn't bother me much at all.

    "O-rly? So what're you posting for?"
    I know that a lot of rules and regulations are set on spells. Power amps can only go so high, speed buffs can only be so fast for certain magics, heals can only be so strong etc... and recently I saw a player, that received word that their magic was too powerful for a D rank spell. The player argued that there was no rules on it posted.
    "Now I see where this is headed..."
    Indeed. Some rules on magic abilities should be posted. Not every last nook and cranny, every dirty little secret of magic scrutiny so long that it takes thirty hours to read, just the bare skin of it.

    Example:
    DMG increase for any spell can be between 1% and 25% depending on it's weaknesses.
    The max range of a C rank spell is 30 meters (90ft give or take a few inches)
    A barrier may take 2 hits of it's current rank, or the equivilant (this is on the site, but not many players see where it is. I know it's there, I've read it, but it should be in a section specifically about magic balancing)

    Specification: A Legendary(+) Item, or any other item tbh, can have either A passive or active ability, not 2 of each (in the case of Legendary/Artifact).

    not many players know this, and very few are illogical thinking they can do 150% DMG increase at D rank. In fact, referring to barriers, when I joined I didn't notice the rule on them at first, and tried to register a barrier that could take 1-S. After playing a while I began to understand just how ridiculously powerful that kind of spell would be at D rank, but when I first got shot down I was secretly PO'd at the mod who graded me. Not all players are lax about having to accept words of authority, as seen a while ago in chat, and will explode. Not all are easy to get ticked as the magic aspect is of little concern when weighed against the promise of a fun time, and will just roll with it. (I'm neither of these, I just bottle it and take it out in COD)

    If little details such as this are posted in the rules section, players will be able to balance their magics a bit better, though some will still be dunces I know, and less will be able to say "there wasn't any rules posted so it's legit" when a mod say's they needa water it down.

    Additionally, certain achievements are rather ambiguous.
    Example:
    Quality 1->3: What is the spectrum that effects this? Is it the opinion of the one grading? or is it another untold rule?

    Veteran 1-3: How long does one have to be on the site? I understand Seijin gives out the third, but what's the time scale for the first two?

    Posting Achievements: No ambiguity here, but can we get an achievement for 10K, 25K, 50K, and 100K posts as well? I know 100K "WTF!!!" but it'd be a welcome challenge!

    Dueling Network Tournament Winner: We talkin' about the YGO Dueling Network? If so, when's the next event? I'm down to make people get rekt








    ~~~~~Lesser Concern~~~~~
    As far as teams go, I can see why Legals and Darkies are a no-go. Ya' know... opposing sides, the enemy of my friend is most likely also my enemy...

    why is it that guildless aren't allowed in Legal teams? I understand that a guildless is someone who holds no alliances, but I'm sure that if it benefits the MC in some way they would at least tolerate having a mosquito on their shoulder. I'm not just saying that because I'm guildless, but I'm sure there's other guildless who want to be on teams with their friends in legal guilds. As is, a guildless can only form alliances with darkies and other guildless, although looking at the team roster I saw no mixing of such (as of 6/27/15). This is on the last section because it's concern to me is quite minimal as it only effects a very small portion of people. I don't know many guildless wizards, and the few I've spoken with the conversation was either a tomahawk (flaming golden, of justice) to the head, or a glomp combined with an escalation of it.
    Kirahunter
    Kirahunter

    The Phoenix


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    Magic Balancing Empty Re: Magic Balancing

    Post by Kirahunter 30th June 2015, 8:49 am

    Mods now operate on set criteria created by Ex-Mod Cirven. Their standards are now uniform and consistent. I suppose it wouldn't hurt to post that rubric where the players can see. But I believe things should remain as open ended as possible. While you said a D-Rank spell blocking a S-Rank is straight up impossible I believe under the right circumstances it should be possible. Now they would be extreme circumstances and I have never seen anything come close but it all comes down to balancing. It's well known we prefer the word "balancing" over "nerfing" because it isn't always about making a spell weaker but maybe giving it greater draw backs to make it possible. This limitless possibility by balancing belief I hold opposes me to the constant adding of more magic rules.

    Now regarding achievements:
    Quality Badge: That is case by case, quality is opinionated but our mods are fair graders
    Veteran Badge: 1 year for Vet 1, 2 years for Vet 2, Undefined for Vet 3 this has been defined in the past
    Post Achievements: By the time you are gunning for 100k posts you are completely disregarding quality posts in favor of spitting out tons of them.
    Dueling Network Tournament: Yes it is YGO Dueling Network. We've had 2 over 3 years. The biggest advocates for the tournament are now inactive. Another could be hosted with enough player interest.


    For teams to me it has always just seemed weird to have teams outside of your guild. The idea is to have a greater connection with people within your guild. A team is a way to say you are more then just guild mates, so how can you be more then guild mates if you aren't even guild mates? Maybe if you have so many legal guild friends you should just join one. o-o This always got me friends splitting up between various guilds, just go to guilds with people you like.


    _____________________________________________________________________________________

    [20:44:53] Kirahunter : also I like the sound of my own voice
    [20:44:59] Kirahunter : so I had to say something

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    Ninetails Derpfox

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    Magic Balancing Empty Re: Magic Balancing

    Post by Ninetails Derpfox 30th June 2015, 9:21 am

    Kirahunter wrote:Mods now operate on set criteria created by Ex-Mod Cirven. Their standards are now uniform and consistent. I suppose it wouldn't hurt to post that rubric where the players can see. But I believe things should remain as open ended as possible. While you said a D-Rank spell blocking a S-Rank is straight up impossible I believe under the right circumstances it should be possible. Now they would be extreme circumstances and I have never seen anything come close but it all comes down to balancing. It's well known we prefer the word "balancing" over "nerfing" because it isn't always about making a spell weaker but maybe giving it greater draw backs to make it possible. This limitless possibility by balancing belief I hold opposes me to the constant adding of more magic rules.Amazingly, I understand this logic and agree with it. Like I said, posting the limitations of the basics would be a great help.

    Now regarding achievements:
    Quality Badge: That is case by case, quality is opinionated but our mods are fair gradersThank you for clearing that up for me
    Veteran Badge: 1 year for Vet 1, 2 years for Vet 2, Undefined for Vet 3 this has been defined in the pastThank you for clearing that up for me
    Post Achievements: By the time you are gunning for 100k posts you are completely disregarding quality posts in favor of spitting out tons of them.No necessarily. As, if you're an active player and participates in social thread, events, discussions such as this one, along with doing jobs, 100k posts would be obtainable with out making BS posts
    Dueling Network Tournament: Yes it is YGO Dueling Network. We've had 2 over 3 years. The biggest advocates for the tournament are now inactive. Another could be hosted with enough player interest.Thank you for clearing that up for me


    For teams to me it has always just seemed weird to have teams outside of your guild. The idea is to have a greater connection with people within your guild. A team is a way to say you are more then just guild mates, so how can you be more then guild mates if you aren't even guild mates? Maybe if you have so many legal guild friends you should just join one. o-o This always got me friends splitting up between various guilds, just go to guilds with people you like.I'm not quite sure what people like me are so I'm neither offended nor elated by that one.

    My comments in this color
    Sir Roxas
    Sir Roxas

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    Magic Balancing Empty Re: Magic Balancing

    Post by Sir Roxas 30th June 2015, 12:30 pm

    I do not really care much for the extracurricular things but I'd like to state my opinion over the matter of posting a basic regulation relating to magic. Limiting the dimensions don't have to be a thing, if that's what Kirahunter and Seikatsu are referring to. What I would personally like is to see basics, maybe maximum dimensions a spell can do, so that it makes it easier for me to formulate a spell that doesn't seem too ridiculous per its rank.


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    Shard
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    Magic Balancing Empty Re: Magic Balancing

    Post by Shard 30th June 2015, 12:45 pm

    If we reveal the maximum limits then everyone is going to try and go for those limits.
    I would like to trust the members, but that's people for you.



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    Azurius Tade
    Azurius Tade

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    Magic Balancing Empty Re: Magic Balancing

    Post by Azurius Tade 30th June 2015, 1:06 pm

    This is also true.
    But you also can't underestimate the quality of a person's character.
    If the person's gonna aim high, may as well make it so they're not aiming terrifyingly high right?

    Kirahunter
    Kirahunter

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    The Phoenix

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    Magic Balancing Empty Re: Magic Balancing

    Post by Kirahunter 30th June 2015, 2:35 pm

    If one is aiming high they should aim as high as possible. Over arching rules will stifle people's willingness to try crazy new things. When you can see the limit you stop dreaming up bigger things. Sure it might stink to have to tone it down a bit but the cost of creativity has always been reality.

    If I'm not making sense let me explain it like this. Rules limit creativity that is just how it is.

    When we have the rules and limits set out from the very begaining new members have their creativity limited from the second they start designing their magic. This means their brain storming and drafting stages are impared by limitations. But it will make revision easier.

    This is compared to having mods keep the rules to themselves. Where new members do not have their creativity limited until the revision stages. So that in their brain storming and drafting they can dream big. But this will make revisions harder.

    Creativity will be limited for the sake of fairness that is just how it is. What it comes down to is are we going to suppress creativity during brain storming or during revision? I believe it is best during revision because that is the whole point of revision, taking a crazy and wild idea and making it a crazy and wild idea that fits in the rules. When players have the rules in mind while brain storming magic they become scared to make wild and crazy ideas for the purpose of fitting in the rules so instead they make more generic ideas to "play it safe." So in one hand we have wild and crazy but balanced or dull and boring and balanced. Take thy pick.


    _____________________________________________________________________________________

    [20:44:53] Kirahunter : also I like the sound of my own voice
    [20:44:59] Kirahunter : so I had to say something

    Missions Completed

    D- 6 (150 exp)
    C- 1 (50 exp)
    B- 1 (1,050 exp)
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    Total:1250

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    Ninetails Derpfox

    Moderator- Developer/GFX Artist- Gain An Artifact- Quality Badge Level 1- Quality Badge Level 2- Quality Badge Level 3- Coming Storms- A-Rank- Rich- Veteran Level 1- Character History!- Magic Application Approved!- Get A Pet!- Character Application Approved!- Complete Your First Job!- Obtain A Lineage!- Join A Faction!- Grand Master [2000]- Master [1000]- Senior [500]- Novice [250]- X-Mas Event Participant- 1 Year Anniversary- Player 
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    First Skill: Soul
    Second Skill: Ice
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    Magic Balancing Empty Re: Magic Balancing

    Post by Ninetails Derpfox 30th June 2015, 2:40 pm

    I believe I do in fact see your point. While complicating the journey moderately, the beginning is still fun and enjoyable. I do apologize for compiling such an idea as this, and presenting it. I'll refrain from such senseless, undercooked thoughts in the future...
    Vox Nihili
    Vox Nihili

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    Magic Balancing Empty Re: Magic Balancing

    Post by Vox Nihili 30th June 2015, 2:57 pm

    The creativity of an individual depends entirely on the individual present. Some people work best when they can't see the iron clad walls and ceiling around them that the rules, which are already in place just behind out sight, because they still believe that they can do anything within reason as you said. Only to have it balanced/toned down during the revision stage to still end up within the walls of balance.

    Others, such as me, can be afraid of how high we can try to reach because we do not want to be overly strong in a suffocating manner. When we see those walls we know what the rough limits are, and can develop things around those to make it an easier time on the mods during the revision stage. For example i've been working with a mod in skype about my future magic apps, and without them i would not have been nearly as creative as i was without some way to reference what was allowed and not. Sure, people like me can always speak with a mod and if one has the free time it serves the same purpose of having the rules written out only on a more personal manner as you get to go over things not on the rules.

    But in the end, the debate on whether we get a rough guidelines on magic limits depends on the mods. Another reason to keep it secret is to do it so that members don't get overly worked up when another magic was approved with just slightly higher numbers than their own, when they hit the stated max limits while the other got a little higher because, as you said, they had more significant weaknesses on it.

    If thats not the case though, and it is simply a matter of having rules in place stifles creativity... than the answer is rather simple and can cater to both types of people. Make the guidelines have the "(Optional Reading)" in the title and put the rules in spoilers. If someone does not wish to read them, they simply dont and let mods give them the changes to be made during revision. If they do all they have to do is click that topic and open up the spoiler relevant to the information they are looking for.


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    Magic Balancing 36626_s
    Lekuna
    Lekuna

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    Magic Balancing Empty Re: Magic Balancing

    Post by Lekuna 30th June 2015, 9:47 pm

    100k posts w/o bs'ing them. Lol


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    Ninetails Derpfox

    Moderator- Developer/GFX Artist- Gain An Artifact- Quality Badge Level 1- Quality Badge Level 2- Quality Badge Level 3- Coming Storms- A-Rank- Rich- Veteran Level 1- Character History!- Magic Application Approved!- Get A Pet!- Character Application Approved!- Complete Your First Job!- Obtain A Lineage!- Join A Faction!- Grand Master [2000]- Master [1000]- Senior [500]- Novice [250]- X-Mas Event Participant- 1 Year Anniversary- Player 
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    Magic Balancing Empty Re: Magic Balancing

    Post by Ninetails Derpfox 1st July 2015, 3:52 am

    Achievement Unlocked:

    10,000G - #No Life
    Cirven
    Cirven

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    Magic Balancing Empty Re: Magic Balancing

    Post by Cirven 1st July 2015, 12:15 pm

    Kirahunter wrote:Mods now operate on set criteria created by Ex-Mod Cirven. Their standards are now uniform and consistent. I suppose it wouldn't hurt to post that rubric where the players can see. But I believe things should remain as open ended as possible. While you said a D-Rank spell blocking a S-Rank is straight up impossible I believe under the right circumstances it should be possible. Now they would be extreme circumstances and I have never seen anything come close but it all comes down to balancing. It's well known we prefer the word "balancing" over "nerfing" because it isn't always about making a spell weaker but maybe giving it greater draw backs to make it possible. This limitless possibility by balancing belief I hold opposes me to the constant adding of more magic rules.

    Now regarding achievements:
    Quality Badge: That is case by case, quality is opinionated but our mods are fair graders
    Veteran Badge: 1 year for Vet 1, 2 years for Vet 2, Undefined for Vet 3 this has been defined in the past
    Post Achievements: By the time you are gunning for 100k posts you are completely disregarding quality posts in favor of spitting out tons of them.
    Dueling Network Tournament: Yes it is YGO Dueling Network. We've had 2 over 3 years. The biggest advocates for the tournament are now inactive. Another could be hosted with enough player interest.


    For teams to me it has always just seemed weird to have teams outside of your guild. The idea is to have a greater connection with people within your guild. A team is a way to say you are more then just guild mates, so how can you be more then guild mates if you aren't even guild mates? Maybe if you have so many legal guild friends you should just join one. o-o This always got me friends splitting up between various guilds, just go to guilds with people you like.

    *Sees he got a mention and jumps in*

    But really though I wish we were able to put out the rules for members to see but it really does hurt creativity a bit more than we liked(at least back when I was a mod).

    The rules I put up give solid guidelines for what can be used at each rank but at the same time I made sure to still leave it open for the staffy to figure out what range of effect a spell should have and with the lurking I have done it seems like it has been working.

    It sucks having members, new or old who want to be the strongest but that is something you can't avoid sadly. The staff have to show people how far they can push but this should only be after that person has made their magic and the staffy should then keep the magic as close to how it was as they can with the fixes based on rank.

    Blah... Feel like I'm staff again talking like that lol


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    Magic Balancing LxcTBIi
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    Rosetta Crawford
    Rosetta Crawford

    Administrator- Moderator- Developer/GFX Artist- Regular VIP Status- VIP- Gain An Artifact- Quality Badge Level 1- Quality Badge Level 2- Quality Badge Level 3- God Of Ishgar- Ten Wizard Saint Member- Guild Master- Demon Slayer- Legal Guild Ace- H-Rank- S-Rank- A-Rank- Veteran Level 2- Veteran Level 1- Magic Application Approved!- Obtain A Secondary Magic!- Character Application Approved!- Complete Your First Job!- Obtain A Lineage!- Join A Faction!- Grand Master [2000]- Master [1000]- Senior [500]- Novice [250]- X-Mas Event Participant- Hero- Villain- 1 Year Anniversary- Player 
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    Magic Balancing Empty Re: Magic Balancing

    Post by Rosetta Crawford 2nd July 2015, 1:45 am

    *steals Cirven to be back on staff*


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    Magic Balancing Zack2_by_gramcrackers-d8ker96

    Magic Balancing Zack_by_ravenart5-d8j23c0

    Magic Balancing Zackrose_zpse9a22d85
    Current missions(4/6):  get the squid A, King of Fighters(S), Village Protection(A), Repair the House(D)
    Cirven
    Cirven

    Devil's Advocate


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    Second Skill: Aphyon Jivven
    Third Skill: Vir'ednith

    Magic Balancing Empty Re: Magic Balancing

    Post by Cirven 2nd July 2015, 4:13 am

    Nuuuuuuuuuuu! *cries and beats on Zack's back as he is carried away*


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      Current date/time is 2nd May 2024, 8:10 pm